TA Ep. 153 Sue Hitzman – Understanding Fascia: Healing Physical and Emotional Pain with Sue Hitzmann

Leigh Ann: [00:00:00] Well, Sue, welcome to the Accrescent podcast, the Accrescent community. I was telling you off air before we got started that fascia, the topic of fascia is new to me as well. So I am very, very eager to be a student in this conversation and learn so much about this. But before we get into some of the nitty gritty there, a little bit of an intro to you, how did you even get into the world of fascia?

Sue Hitzmann: Well, I mean, I’ve been in fitness forever, but the way I got into fascia was my own chronic pain. I had been in the fitness industry since I’m 16. I mean, like I, my whole life revolved around health and wellness and longevity. And I had bought into this idea that if you ate right and you exercise, you’d lead a healthy, active, pain free life and then jump ahead a decade.

Now I’m like 28 years old and I wake up one day and the bottom of my foot hurt me. And I thought to myself, I must have. Stepped on a piece of glass and I did what most people probably do when they have pain. They kind of half [00:01:00] ignore it. I was stretching, I’d ice it, and nothing made a dent in the way that I felt.

And what started off as ultimately what was diagnosed as plantar fasciitis turned into this body wide fatigue and ache that I could not shake. I mean, I was exhausted. My whole body was achy. I just, I felt. horrible. And that’s what sent me down the road to discover what exactly is fascia because I just kept thinking plantar fasciitis.

Fasciitis is inflammation of fascia. And I was like, could inflamed fascia be causing me all that pain? And if that’s the case, there’s no exercise for that. But I also don’t know anything about Exactly, like, how could fascia play a role in my pain and that’s kind of what happened and so for, you know, another 20 plus 25 years, I’ve been down the rabbit hole to try to understand.

what fascia is, and then to be able to explain this in a [00:02:00] way that can impact other people so that they don’t have to go down that same road of having chronic pain symptoms that doctors just give you an anti inflammatory for.

Leigh Ann: Right. Yeah. And I imagine so jarring too, because that paradigm you said you might have had before when you were younger of, if I just eat right and exercise, there

Sue Hitzmann: I’m gonna be great.

Leigh Ann: And so you’re doing that. And then this thing pops up and it can be really limiting because you’re like, well, what else is there to do?

And to your point, so often conventional medicine is like nothing, sorry.

Sue Hitzmann: Yeah, that’s what the doctor said. They were like, either it was they weren’t sure what was the problem or, you know, again, that original diagnosis of foot pain, you know, plantar fasciitis. But what really transpired for me was really this slow, Catalyst of of pain that really went through my whole body. I was fatigued.

I couldn’t walk right. I was frustrated. I was depressed. [00:03:00] So it just, um, you know, I think that when you’re young and you kind of have this belief when we’re young that we’re invincible or that, you know, I mean, at that point, I thought I knew a whole lot about the human body. And then to discover that there was this entire system that I really didn’t know much about.

It, you know, It kind of unraveled me over the education that I had to realize, gosh, there’s so much more to learn. And I can tell you in my fifties now, there’s like. I still am learning every day. You’re learning, you’re learning, you’re learning and realizing that there’s not enough time in the human experience to actually learn it all.

So, you know, you seek out all of the smart people and, um, if you’re smart, you, you learn, you just become a consistent learner for your lifetime.

Leigh Ann: Mm hmm. 100%. I, if someone isn’t consistently learning, it’s like a red flag for me of, oh no, especially this is like relationships [00:04:00] in general, but especially when it comes to medical professionals, because I’m like, look, man, first of all, the research you were reading as you were going through your MD was probably already 20 years old.

And if you haven’t looked at a study since you graduated, you are so out of date with the information.

Sue Hitzmann: That’s right. And that’s the trouble that a lot of people run into with the medical practice is that there’s, they specialize in a thing, but most doctors, they take maybe a semester of nutrition. They, and actually in the many years of presenting on the topic of fascia to medical doctors, uh, to physicians, they come back to me later going, I have never heard anybody explain.

Fascia, the way you’re explaining this. I’m like, well, there’s piles of research out there. Now you just have to start looking. And that’s the thing. It’s not that they’re lazy. They’re just exhausted. They’re so busy doing their practice. They don’t have time to be learning one thing.[00:05:00]

Leigh Ann: When fascia feels like, maybe, maybe this is just me, but it feels like it’s kind of having, it’s coming more into the zeitgeist. It’s becoming much, much more broadly discussed, which probably in part is you and all the speaking you’ve been doing on this topic, it’s finally, at least again, kind of making it into that mainstream, but take us back.

Even for me. Yes, I know what fascia is. For those who don’t. Give us a little bit of that intro and then we’re gonna start to break down how can this thing called fascia be impacting us?

Sue Hitzmann: Exactly. Okay. So traditionally fascia is very simply defined as the substance under your skin that supports, protects, and connects everything. That’s why they call it connective tissue. But fascia is more than just a connective tissue. It’s actually a sensory organ. There’s over 250 million sensory nerves living in fascia.

So when you’re [00:06:00] feeling pain or you’re feeling something, you’re feeling it through the nerves that live in the fascial system. And in more recent times, we’re even looking at fascia as a system. It is a connecting system. system. It is giving your joint shock absorption. It keeps your organs tucked back in your belly.

It transports nutrients and waste through your system. So in fact, it’s the only system in the entire body that is completely continuous from skin to bone, head to toe. There’s no separation in it. And the, and the primary substance. of fascia. There’s two is collagen and something called bound water, which is more of a gel like substance that maintains its structure when we move and breathe and live and do all of the things that we want to do in our day to day practice.

So fascia is really, the stability system of your body. And, and when I say [00:07:00] stability, I don’t mean how well you balance on a Bosu ball. I could relate fascia to any aspect that you want to keep balanced and stable. So neurological, chemical, psychological, physiological, hormonal, I could link fascia to all of it because fascia is the system that everything lives in to communicate, to stay connected, and to also have its It’s interdependence, it’s, it’s independence, but in the intersystem.

It’s what holds everything together and keeps it all apart in and of itself.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. And just that interconnectedness. To your point earlier, we can’t, conventional medicine is all about, I study this acute thing, I study this acute thing. I study just this organ, and they’re all connected. We can’t separate them. I am so excited because in my practice with my one on one work, it’s all about what are the deeper emotional contributors, emotional root causes

Sue Hitzmann: Mm hmm.

Leigh Ann: the things I’m experiencing.

And oftentimes it can be [00:08:00] emotional patterns like anxiety or grief or anger. Very often it’s also lifestyle patterns. Like why do I keep attracting in Toxic partners. Why can’t I set this boundary with my narcissistic mom? But I also work a lot with cancer patients and chronic illness patients. And so every single day, day in and day out, I’m working with people talking about, here’s how our emotions can be contributing to this physical ailment that we are experiencing.

And

Sue Hitzmann: Yes. That’s, that’s good.

Leigh Ann: lens.

Sue Hitzmann: hmm. Yes. Well, there’s two things about fascia. Fascia is, um, again, it’s primarily made up of collagen and collagen is kind of like a superconductor. There’s a crystalline matrix that fascia possesses. It, it, it has a frequency to it. So when you’re saying, you know, I’m attracting a particular person, your frequency is being emitted through the fascial net.

[00:09:00] So when you have a kind of a gut feeling or you have butterflies in your stomach or whatever, these like metaphors are that we use, fascia is a vibrating, constantly morphing and adapting system. And one of the more recent research papers that has, is being worked on with Dr. Robert Schleip and a group, um, Uh, in Europe is how, when, when people suffer with depression, their fascia becomes more stiff, but also dampened.

So think of it, think of, think, this is like a good analogy for everybody. Think of fascia like a sock. sponge. Okay. So when a sponge is moist, you can compress and pull on it. And when you let the compression or tension go, it returns to its ideal shape, right? And it absorbs water very quickly, but a dehydrated or a dried out sponge, it doesn’t move or adapt very easily.

It [00:10:00] doesn’t absorb water as well as a moist one. And so fascia has a propensity to move. to get too stiff, but in depressed patients, we’re finding a dampening effect. So not only is it stiff, but it’s more like a, like an old sponge that kind of is like smushy, you know? So it doesn’t have the pliability and the bounce.

It’s not reacting to tension or compression quickly. And then it’s just kind of, you know, spongy. gross, spongy, like a moldy old sponge. So this is compelling to say that, does fascia change the emotional stability of the body? And I’m going to say yes, because fascia, it is helping, Every aspect of your body to function efficiently.

And one of the biggest things that helps is your nervous system. Remember what I said, sensory nerves live in fascia. So when fascia doesn’t have it’s stable, supple environment [00:11:00] to allow nervous reactive, you know, efferent and afferent nervous system, I don’t want to get too technical, but when, when our nervous system has to operate, if the sensory nervous system isn’t in a stable environment, it kind of stresses.

the stress response out. So the body’s natural ability to repair downgrades. And now you’re kind of in a more stressed state and that can build towards anxiety, depression, uh, you know, just that, that sense of disease in your body where you’re agitated. So when, when people have those kinds of senses in their body, I said, you know, Remember, fascia is a sensing system.

So when you have a sensation, you’re angry, you’re, um, you’re frustrated, pause, become the observer. I’m aware of my process of observation that I am this way. What, what is making me angry or frustrated to become acknowledged of it? And then maybe [00:12:00] make action instead of just saying, I’m angry and just start screaming at everybody to which we all do sometimes.

But again, I could, I could relate. fascia and its stability to how your nervous system operates to how your lymphatic system operates. So your hormones, your, um, immune functions, all of it relies on the fluid perfusion of fascia to function efficiently.

Leigh Ann: Oh this is, I’m so excited to get into this. Yes, nervous system, lymphatic system, I want to get into that even deeper. I guess the starting question though is what, what causes the issues with the fascia? And is this a two way road? Meaning, If, I don’t know, maybe I have an injury that causes my fascia to tighten.

If that goes on long enough, that then starts to affect my mental, emotional, spiritual, and vice versa. If my mental, emotional, spiritual is off, it can cause issues with fascia.

Sue Hitzmann: Indeed. I would definitely a two way street, but one thing I would say is you’re, you’re, you’re asking a really directive question. [00:13:00] What causes what we call connective tissue dehydration or fascial dehydration? What causes the stiffening effect? Living does. Daily living, that’s the thing that research is starting to recognize, is that actually this tissue is morphing and adapting every single day.

In fact, it’s a natural cellular process. It’s happening to every single one of us every single day. But even if people don’t have pain, okay, you guys were listening to us. If you don’t have pain, I will guarantee you have felt the effects of connective tissue dehydration. So I’m going to point it out.

Have you ever sat for long periods of time? And when you get up, you feel like you’ve aged 40 years because your joints don’t work as well when you get up as they did when you sat down, right? Or you wake up in the morning feeling as stiff as a dried out sponge left out overnight on your kitchen sink.

These are common. Uh, I call them pre pain signals that your body is sending you a message. Hey, the tissue has gotten stiff and here’s the problem, or I guess it’s a good thing, but a bad thing, a blessing and curse [00:14:00] is that when you get up and you move around. the stiffness goes away. So we never think to do anything about it.

But if you think of the fluids and fascia like a river daily living is accumulating kind of sediment in the river’s flow. So if you never do anything to directly address the fascial dehydration that’s existing for everyone, you start getting more noticeable symptoms like Your joints start aching you all the time.

Your posture is declining. Your neck or your low back is always cranky, right? And if you do what most people do, you’re popping an Advil or a Tylenol or some sort of a pain reliever. When you have those types of symptoms, that’s the bigger kick because that’s how you now alter the nervous system’s reaction to this issue in connective tissue.

So when you’re taking a, uh, an anti inflammatory, it’s kind of like your toaster’s on fire and your fire alarm goes off and you walk over to the fire alarm and take the batteries out. But the toaster is still on fire, right? And that’s the problem with [00:15:00] traditional medicine, is that they’re, they are, um, giving us ways to perpetuate the accumulation of stress in the body, right?

So, eating water filled foods, drinking water, right? You’re taking a sip. I just took a sip of my water. Anyone who’s listening to us should be drinking their water at this point too. You know, that’s a big thing is, is dehydration. You need to sip water more frequently. And of course, you know, you’re saying something really important.

It is a two way street because when you’re depressed, you don’t really want to move around very much. And it, you tend to have more pain. When you’re depressed. But in my situation, I wasn’t depressed. I didn’t, I was fine. And I woke up one day and my foot hurt me. But after three months, six months, eight months, at this point, I’m crawling to the bathroom in the middle of the night because I can’t sleep.

I’m, I can’t walk right. I’m in pain all the time. I’m exhausted. I’m frustrated. And now. I got depressed, you know, I [00:16:00] mean, like depressing, you know, you’re a fitness pro and people are like, oh, no pain, no gain. And I’m like, this sucks. I mean, no pain, no gain. This is like the worst, you know, I mean, I can’t do my job.

So there is a two way street, how we react. to stress is really the big thing. It’s not that stress is the enemy. It’s really how we react to any incoming information. How do we react to our living experience? That, that really has a significant factor in fascial, uh, resilience. Yeah,

Leigh Ann: things that’s bringing up for me is, one, yeah, it, it can become this nasty downward spiral because they, they can impact each other, mental, emotional and physical. And so. Mm hmm. To your point, I, maybe it starts with an injury that is debilitating me, then I get more depressed, so then I get even less active, which makes me more depressed, which, and it’s just that downward [00:17:00] spiral

Sue Hitzmann: that’s it.

Leigh Ann: and trying to bring, you know, just bring in some of those pieces that cut into, stop that downward spiral and get things shifting upward again.

But the nice thing is that also works both ways. If I can uplift my mood. That’s going to impact my physical health as my physical health improves. That’s going to impact my mental health. And then it becomes this beautiful upward.

Sue Hitzmann: That’s right. That’s right. And that’s a really big thing for people to hear that we, we are actually the cause of our depression in so many ways are again, the way that we’ve reacted in the past to a particular situation. We oftentimes in the present moment are reacting to something in the present moment because of something that we experienced that was similar to it in the past, right?

It’s not the same situation, but something is different. your brain doesn’t really know past from present from future really. It’s, it’s kind of a trick with the brain. So we, we have to remember that, you know, living is, is not easy. You know, the [00:18:00] human experience is a gift, but it’s also. Kind of riddled with all sorts of conundrums.

And when you cut yourself or you have a scar, right, the tissue will never return to what it exactly was. It will, the remnant of the, of the damage under the skin will always be there. And that’s the thing that you have to remember, even with nature is that nature isn’t really real. Perfect, right? There’s no straight lines in, in nature.

And so with our fascial tissue, when you have a scar, it tends to get too linear. And so that scar can definitely cause issues somewhere else in your mobility or pregnancy, right? Postpartum, all of these things can affect the fascial tissue. But the good news is that you can rehydrate this tissue. You can replenish it.

You can improve its. function of the stiff to elastic properties, if you know how. And that’s [00:19:00] really kind of what I’ve spent a lot of time saying to people is, Hey, you know, don’t wait for pain to get out of pain. But if you suddenly find yourself in pain, let me teach you a simple way to restore this tissue so that we can get you out of it as quick as possible.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. And what I hear from what you’re saying too, is it’s, there’s a lifestyle element to this. Of course, when we’re in an acute situation, there might be more, more we can do. This is one of the questions I had wanted to ask towards the end, but we’re here now, so we’ll sit with it of yes, is fascial work, something that it’s like, Yeah, I just need to do this when I’m in pain, or is this something that we want to check in with?

And it makes me think of what I share with my clients and patients all the time of, Hey, emotions, sadness, anger, fear, grief, they’re not bad. They’re here to communicate. We’re not trying to rid you of all emotions and make you a robot Zen Buddha guru who never feels anything.

Sue Hitzmann: Right.

Leigh Ann: Emotions are going [00:20:00] to come up more than anything.

We want to equip you to be able to support yourself best when they do. And especially when they’re really, really heightened. And I think that’s just such an important reframe. I think, especially with physical based healing, we, we often jump straight to, well, I should never be feeling this or this should never happen.

Sue Hitzmann: You know, I always say I want to help people live pain free, but that’s kind of like saying I want to help people like breathe or something. It’s like, you, you know, it’s breathing is fundamental. Pain is going to happen, right? You know, it’s, it’s not like you’re going to live a life where you’re never going to have pain.

Like I cut my finger the other day terribly. So, and it hurt and it bled a lot, you know? And so accidents happen, pain occurs. But I think there’s like so many things that I could talk about in this instance. But one is that you shouldn’t wait until you have pain to hydrate fascia. You should learn to care for fascia, just like eating a healthy diet, [00:21:00] meditation, walking, whatever you’re going to do, breath work, doing, doing something where you’re actively participating in and helping perfusion fascia.

I think it’s absolutely important. We should move every day. That’s like number one, whatever you’re doing, move more. That’s step number one. Second is you’re talking about, you know, emotions and things like that. And you know, we’re bigger than our emotions. And Rupert Spira, who’s a wonderful, um, uh, educator, uh, talks about, an acronym he calls SIFT.

Sensations, images, feelings, and thoughts. And the, and the reality is that sensations come and go, images in your mind come and go, feelings and thoughts, they, they come into your field, you become aware of them, and then, and then, We need to let them go. Our problem is that we have an emotional thing. Your boyfriend cheats on you.

Somebody hits your car. They scratch your new car. You’ve got a flat tire. Your mom’s driving you crazy. [00:22:00] Your dog crapped on your best shoes. Whatever it is that’s driving you crazy. It’s a moment in time. Okay. These things shall pass. And in the case of, you know, death, someone dying, while that really educates you on impermanence, and I get it, it’s hard and it’s sad and it, it’s traumatizing.

Um, when my husband passed away, it was like life wrenching. But, you know, it’s the same, is that it’s a moment, it’s a time, and I believe that we’re here to learn from other people’s passing, and so you have to become aware that that’s going to happen, and you are going to be sad at some point, and you are going to get angry, you are going to be frustrated or have grief, but the more you attune yourself and become aware of how much power you do have.

To feel better that you, you know, your [00:23:00] mind needs to be changed and, and the soul inside of you, the spirit inside of you can change the mind if you know how. And some of it is just getting quiet and watching thoughts come into the mind and then allowing them to pass and not consume you. And it’s tough, but it’s practice.

And I think that I ask that a lot with clients is where are you in yourself? practice. And I mean that in every way, your self love, your self talk, your self acceptance, your self appreciation, right? Where are you in the journey of becoming a loving, aware human inside yourself, right? You’re a spirit occupying a body, utilizing mind to have a human experience, right?

Where are you in the journey of caring for the self that you’re walking in, right? And I think that that’s a big question for people that sometimes they need to sit down and go, Gosh, I, I don’t really think I do a lot of self caring. Maybe I do need to [00:24:00] care a little more about myself. What a shocking idea, but that’s, that’s a big message, right?

Leigh Ann: Yes. 100%. And in all the ways. Okay, two other questions I’d love to get to. First, before getting into more of that, okay, and how do we care for our fascia? Well, what does that look like as more of a lifestyle maintenance practice? And then maybe more of an acute practice when needed. But, what is that ripple effect?

Something’s off with my fascia. It’s starting to harden, whatever the terms are we would use for that. What is then that cascade that starts to happen in the body?

Sue Hitzmann: Okay. So this is a big one, right? So what starts off as this stiff achiness when you get up and you move around and it goes away. Suddenly you’re noticing more joints are bothering you. Your joints are kind of achy. And this again, plays a huge impact into the nervous system. And because the nervous system is relying on figuring out where your joints are in relationship to gravity to move you.

[00:25:00] And so if fascia is loaded with stuck stress, your nervous system starts to adapt and the adaptations are lowering your metabolism, slowing you down, it decreases fluid perfusion into the gut. Now you’re suddenly noticing that you’ve got symptoms that seem completely unrelated to how you move, like all of a sudden you’re noticing that you can’t digest milk anymore, or you’re bloated after every single meal, uh, you feel like you are just starving.

In the middle of the day and then you start grabbing sugary foods and that’s kind of that need to pep you up because you’re kind of exhausted all day long. You start noticing more and more by three, four o’clock. You need to either get caffeine or sugar or something into your body to keep you going.

But at night. When you try to wind down now you can’t wind down and now you’re finding that you’re having trouble falling asleep and staying asleep [00:26:00] and that’s going to now impact your neurotransmitters in your gut. Now suddenly your gut and your liver are working overtime at night. You’re getting up to go to the bathroom a number of times because your body’s trying to junk dump toxins and waste out of your body.

It’s having a harder and harder time doing that. And then it starts to impact your hormonal balance. And now you are moody. You have low grade inflammation in your body. Your digestion is crapping out and now you have hot flashes. And again, a lot of sleep disruptions, um, irritable bowel syndrome, you’re depressed, you’re anxious.

All of these things are the cascade that kind of puts you in this state of disarray. Um, and over time you have a higher tendency toward spraining joints. You get, you get a sprain in ankle, you sprain your ligaments, you end up becoming clumsy. Uh, you are fatigued all day long. You have [00:27:00] a lack of concentration and, um, you have a higher tendency not only to have pain, but disease and you’re accelerating your aging process.

So you’re going to look older, um, because fascia is also. The substance that keeps your skin lifted and smooth and supple. So it, from skin to bone, head to toe, fascia plays a role in everything.

Leigh Ann: I so much in my work with clients work on subconscious, more of like the cognitive psychological, but specifically subconscious contributors, but talk so often with them of we need to do body based work as well.

Sue Hitzmann: Yes. Yes. You can’t, you can’t just talk your way out of emotional distress. You have to feel your way through it. And that’s really important because it’s a lot of times it’s not even a mind thing. Like when you have grief, it, you feel it right. When you’re depressed, you feel it. And that is important for [00:28:00] people to realize that the physical body is a transportation system.

for the mind, for our spirit. So we need to take care of that physical form because it helps the mind function. And so what you said it earlier on, right? When my body hurts, my mind is frustrated. My mind is frustrated. I don’t want to move. And now my body hurts. So it’s like, you’re in this vicious cycle.

And that happens with a lot of people. When you ask people why they don’t exercise, why they don’t move, it’s because they’re in pain, but you’re never going to get out of pain. If you don’t move, you have back pain and you know, people like I can’t stand up, they sit down and it’s like, but sitting is what’s it’s like the new smoking, right?

It’s like the desk sentence sitting is what’s making your back hurt. You’ve got to get up and move. And they’re like, but I hurt when I move. I’m like, if you keep walking, it’s going to feel better. You got to move. So that’s a huge contributor. And, and that really is, I think the cascade most people run into is that it starts off as I don’t feel great to, I really feel terrible.

Leigh Ann: And so is [00:29:00] what, again, to your point, there’s, there’s an element of fascial inflammation or things we’re experiencing that is just so normal. It’s a part of, yeah, this is a system I need to maintain like any other system in my

Sue Hitzmann: Indeed. Yeah.

Leigh Ann: Is it something though, I mean, I’d love to hear about how maybe an injury, like a physical injury could impact that more intensely, but also more specifically.

How can chronic stress or really traumatic emotional event cause issues with the fascia?

Sue Hitzmann: Yeah. So they’re, they’re two. So I, they’re both, they’re both trauma, right? So there’s acute trauma. Like you get hit by a bus or you fall down a flight of stairs. We know exactly what happened, right? You sprain your ankle, you break a bone. Fascia is going to adapt. These myofibroblasts in fascia are the healing cells.

So they’re going to go to work. You create this low grade inflammation, mass cells, macrophages, uh, you know, white blood cells are going to come down and you’re going to get really swollen. [00:30:00] But the, the big thing is like, if you sprain your ankle, most people don’t really give it enough time to truly heal their wrap it up and then they say.

I’m going to go to work anyway. I’m, I’m, I’m going to walk. I’m going to go for my run. I’m, I’m going to just ride a bicycle. Cause I’ve got to exercise, whatever it is. There’s a limping that is going to occur. And as you’re limping around, that’s causing a strain effect all the way up to the opposite hip and the opposite shoulder.

And now your gait pattern is changing. And as you’re limping around, your nervous system is now adopting a new neural pattern to move you. And there’s the big problem is that as it’s changing, even long after you heal, Some of those adopted roadblocks are still there and you’re still kind of taking side streets instead of the highway to get you where you want to go.

So that’s one thing that happens [00:31:00] in, in acute trauma, right? Is that we kind of cause more accumulative issues. in the case of scarring. Scarring is kind of like if you’ve ever had a angora sweater and you kind of get a hole in it and you decide you’re going to pull one of those threads and you see that thread pulls all the way up, right?

Is, is that wherever a scar is long, far, far away from where the scar is, fascia can play an effect. It can get stiff like a, like literally a, like a skid mark in under the skin. But on the other side, when you are Let’s say that you’re in an abusive relationship and you are constantly in a state of fear.

Our body is reacting. You can see it when somebody is scared or, or nervous, their shoulders are up and you’re like, Hey, are you okay? And everyone’s like, Oh no, I’m fine. You’re like, well, your eyes are really big. I mean, like, let’s just suddenly like, Oh yeah, my shoulders were, I guess I was just holding a lot of stress.

But that tension [00:32:00] that we think is neurological is now adapting the fascial tissue to hold us in that place. And so our breath becomes shallow, our vagus nerve, our cranial nerves end up getting overwired. And this again, causes all of these massive effects that can leave you really traumatized and now feeling physical pain in the case of it being emotional.

Um, I’ll give you another, I’ll give you a good one. As a client of mine, she had a boss that would just yell at her and you know, constantly inundating her with work. And every, he, she said, every time he comes in, I just am like, My whole body goes up like this and my neck is killing me. And I, and I said to her, you know, you gotta be careful with that because.

You’re waiting for him to come into the room and you think that’s like the neck pain, but now she could be home on a [00:33:00] Saturday thinking about work and her neck started to bother her. So your own mind going into this future place is actually triggering an effect where the tissue is adapting even when you’re not there. So that’s the big problem with fascia is that you can have pain and find no tissue damage at all, and you can have a ton of tissue damage and maybe not feel pain. So it really is a conundrum with fascia to just say, Hey, whether you have pain or not, You should be caring for it 100 percent of the time.

You should know about it. You should realize that it plays a role in your aging process, in pain, in your mental well being, in your physical state. So it’s, everybody should know how to, how to care for it. It’s that simple,

Leigh Ann: Yeah. To your point, again, like that kind of two-way road, she might be able to cognitively become aware of what’s going on and when she notices maybe that tension coming [00:34:00] up. Have a little inner dialogue of actually in this moment, I’m safe. It’s okay. And that’s huge. That’s super profound. And at the same time, can we do some of that body based work so that our body, so my mind is giving my body safety signals and my body is giving my mind safety signals.

Sue Hitzmann: That’s it. And that’s the big thing is that we know that we can go, okay, calm down. Right. But that might not calm you down at all, especially when you’re really annoyed with something you’re like, okay, I’m just going to calm down here for a second. But really that might make you more frustrated.

Leigh Ann: Yeah.

Sue Hitzmann: You know, like you’re, you’re like trying to calm down, but now I’m angry.

So there is a difference. And the one thing I, and I, I hear it all the time with melt with, with what the method that I share with people is they’re like, if I melt in the morning, my whole day is better. And I don’t, I, I literally, people are nicer to me. And I’m like, well, maybe we’re energy field is just more open.

The frequency of you is faster. Flowing, you’re breathing [00:35:00] better. You’re, you’re, you’re transmitting peacefulness in your body. And so peacefulness comes back. Right. If I’m, if I wake up in the morning and I’m late and I run out the door and I’m not caring for myself, usually that’s when shit happens. And like, I don’t like my day is not so good anymore.

You know?

Leigh Ann: Yeah. And I think this speaks to co regulation and reinforcing this concept of there’s just daily maintenance work we need to do because co regulation is my nervous system is sensing your nervous system. So if your nervous system is sending out all these alarm signals, because the bosses mean to you, I’m also going to feel a little tight, tense, and anxious.

And the reality is let’s think about it as we go through our day and interact With people at work, people on the freeway, people in the grocery store. How many cues of danger are we getting exposed to every day? And so, yeah, to that point, making sure, maybe we start the day and we end the day with safety signals.

Sue Hitzmann: Yes. With, [00:36:00] with, with, with self love. I mean, I really think that’s important whether somebody’s adopting a meditation practice or just a mindful based practice, you know, journaling, you know, just, um, having gratitude for a moment and saying thank you for, for being here. Um, you know, and, and that’s, it is sometimes we’re, if we aren’t having a healthy relationship with ourselves, how are we having healthy relationships with children, with parents?

Your husband’s, wife’s, boyfriend’s, cat’s, dog’s, doesn’t matter. Any other living being is going to be affected by your frequency. I mean, we know that this is true. You know, I’m sure any woman has ever been at a party and some weird dude over in the corner is staring at you and you’re like, ugh, and then you walk over to another.

And I’m gonna show you how to do that. So, um, let’s say you’re in your area of the party and literally your hair staring up on and like, what the heck? Oh my God. He’s staring at me again. How do you feel somebody staring at you? It’s a frequency and we connect with certain [00:37:00] frequencies. Some people you meet and you’re just perfectly connected.

Like you just instantaneously are like, I love this person. And there are other people you meet and you’re like, I don’t want to be anywhere near that person. And they’re just toxic. Right? So, but how would you know that? Even if somebody didn’t say something, how would you know that, you know, maybe that’s not a person, but God, that person looks really angry.

Like, how do you know? And some of that is it’s intuitive. It’s a frequency. And so fascia really does have a, an intuitive nature to it. So we want to keep the fluids moving in fascia so that we are, we’re transmitting a loving, peaceful frequency to others.

Leigh Ann: I love that perfect segue into, tell us how to do that, please. What is the melt method? And I think it would be helpful if there is a difference, maybe there’s not, but yes, is there a difference between what we might do just as kind of typical everyday [00:38:00] maintenance versus what we might do if there actually was an injury, or maybe I’m in like an acute state of stress or trauma, what I might, if there’s anything different I might

Sue Hitzmann: yeah, so, so melt is a self care technique. We, we adopt, uh, it’s kind of like doing self massage to yourself. We, we blend mindful meditation practice and breath work with self myofascial release kind of concepts where we’re using soft tools, soft balls and rollers to apply to the body to help calm the nervous system and restore the fluid perfusion of fascia.

So. with anybody. There’s, uh, what we, I always start anybody with the hand and foot therapy kit. I actually have mine here on my desk as they always are. So we use this, this very soft kind of a pliable ball and treating your hands and feet. We don’t realize how many sensory nerves are living in our hands and feet, right?

But we sense and feel the world around us. through our hands and feet more than anywhere else. So if you’re, if you’re [00:39:00] not hydrating through the feet and your ground reaction force is not stable and supple, now you’re walking, your gait pattern changes. And again, it increases your chances for back pain.

So if you didn’t have pain, I would tell anybody they could do anything with melt. They could do the rebalance sequence. They could use the roller, but if you have an injury or an issue, what we adopt is what we call the indirect before direct approach of melt. So if you had low back pain, the last thing you would do is the low back roll.

release sequence. You would do a foot treatment and then you might do the lower body compression sequence and then you would do a low back decompression. So you work your way toward an area that has pain because chances are there’s inflammation there. And so it’s kind of like sediment of a river. You wouldn’t go right to the epicenter of the sediment.

You would work around the periphery to try to draw fluids in to break up the sediment. And that is very similar to how we work. with melt. We use a very gentle approach [00:40:00] and depending upon again, the body issue, we would create what we call a melt map, which is adopting a practice of doing particular sequences and moves in a particular order to yield a specific response.

The unique thing about melt is We treat people like I would as a therapist. I teach people how to assess their body for stock stress. What is fascial dehydration feel like? How can I identify it in my body? Then treat your body and right away reassess and notice a difference. And the cool thing about melt and what you learn with fascia is that it is a very fast changing tissue in the sense of hydration.

Whereas collagen is a soft tissue. slow tissue to adapt change. You have to work at it constantly, but, but hydration, it’s easy to move fluids and fascia and it can make an instant change. So in 10 minutes a day, you could make a change, just melting your feet. You’d find that you get more range of motion in your forward bend.

[00:41:00] Um, if somebody, you know, brought their arms up and tried to So basically what happens is people can do, they can actually extend their wrist back. You might notice that you actually don’t have good wrist extension, but after doing a hand treatment, suddenly your wrist moves better. So it’s a, I think that’s the nice thing about melt is it makes instant changes.

And if you do it like a daily self care practice should be done much like brushing your teeth, right? You don’t just brush your teeth on Monday. You brush your teeth every day, right? Um, that it can make a really nice lasting change. And, and again, kind of like an anti inflammatory, it builds up in your system, and you find that You know, you don’t need to necessarily always do it every day, but I melt every day because it feels good.

And, uh, it helps me to fall asleep and stay asleep longer. Uh, I wake up feeling rejuvenated and I think it helps me with any type of sports performance or movement.

Leigh Ann: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. To that point, it’s that mindset shift too of prevention. Even though it sounds like you’re gonna feel an impact, you’re gonna feel lighter, better, looser.

Sue Hitzmann: That’s

Leigh Ann: So many [00:42:00] different things, but yeah, shifting that to prevention, right? I talk about this with clients all the time is, Hey, yes, when you’re in a moment of turbulence, I love that you pull out the meditation, pull out the Evox, pull out these different things, but how can you do something for your emotional wellness every single day?

Sue Hitzmann: Be proactive rather than reactive. Cause that’s the thing is people think that they’re so proactive with their healthcare. And I say, no, you’re not. You’re reactive. People go on a diet when they feel fat, they run on a treadmill when they feel like they need to exercise, right? It’s always an afterthought because if I like, I don’t feel good.

Now I’m gonna this. And I think to myself, Why not do things that make you feel good even when you feel good because now you’re going to feel great, right? You know, you don’t feel good. At least you’ll feel better. So that you I’m with you I mean honestly Leanne if everybody’s here in this and can can recognize that Self care is actually A hard thing for people [00:43:00] to do as a daily practice, it’s a, you’re more apt to care for your animals and your family members or other people than you are yourself.

And just like they say, when, you know, if a plane’s going to crash, put your oxygen mask on first before you help anybody else. How are you going to help anybody if you don’t have that oxygen mask on yourself?

Leigh Ann: Yeah. Oh my gosh. So many things coming up with that. What I want to ask is it sounds like it’s a very gentle process. And I often have my clients do a lot of somatic type flows where it’s these gentle movements that help the emotion move through their, their body. And I always tell them, I’m like, just trust me.

This is not a workout. You’re not going to be sweating and tired after this. You’re going to be like, what the heck is this movement? How could this possibly do anything for me? And then 20 minutes later, you’re going to feel amazing. So just try it.

Sue Hitzmann: Gentle, gentle is better. I mean, would you rather somebody punch you [00:44:00] or hug you to make you feel better? You know, like if you were crying and some guy came up to you, say, Oh, come on there, buddy, you know, just chip her up, you know, instead you warm embraces gonna make you feel better. So we, you know, and a lot of people have used foam rollers before and our roller soft.

It’s very pliable. And to me, the, the hard rollers, this whole idea of smashing your fascia and scratching at your fascia and, you know, blasting your fascia. I’m like, why would you need to do any of that? Just be good to your body and your body wants to adapt. We’re, we’re a changing being we’re constantly in a state of change.

So easing tension or compression, into the body, breathing, slowing down. This is actually the easiest way to calm the mind and bring you out of a stress state, right? Anybody would tell you if you’re feeling stressful, just pause. Take a breath, maybe breathe in and see a mountain and breathe out and [00:45:00] feel solid.

You know, just take a moment and see if you feel better. Right? So this is, you are saying something really powerful here, is that gentle approach is Oftentimes the best way to care for oneself. And this is the opposite of what people do. If they have neck pain, most people will take a lacrosse ball and jam it right into their neck.

And I think of it, this is a good analogy. Also, I say this a lot. If you, if a kid came up to you crying out for your help, you wouldn’t walk up to them and punch them in the face, right? You would. Put down at their level, you would calm them down, you would tell them they’re safe, and then you would get the information of why they’re crying, and then you would take action.

But when our bodies are screaming out for our help, we assault the messenger, we shoot the messenger, right? So that’s, again, a theme when, when something hurts, we want to keep touching it to feel the pain. And I think, why do that? Like, why not? try to veer your mind away from the pain [00:46:00] so that you can heal.

And the more you do that, and that’s also what suffering is about, is focusing on the trauma. And that’s what gets us all bent up emotionally. But if we realize that suffering is a choice, instead you. Taking the mindset of healing instead of focusing on the pain, actually veer your mind away from the pain points and into the healing process of the body.

And you will supercharge that healing potential and diffuse the pain without focusing on it at all. And that is healing. Not common to most people. So when they start melting, most of my clients are like, when are we going to rub my neck? And I’m like, we’re not going to rub your neck. We’re going to work all the fluid to your neck.

Give us 20 minutes. Let’s go ahead. Let’s do this treatment. Let’s see if you feel better. Sure enough, they get up. I’m like, turn your head now. And they’re like, huh? I think it was maybe when I did this, I think it was like when I go, you know, and they’re almost trying to find the pain

Leigh Ann: yeah, yeah, [00:47:00] yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think two, two things that speaks to one, I think a deeper collective limiting beliefs around we, we need to earn it and that’s why we make healing so difficult sometimes. And, and it can be, it can be simple. It can be light, can be gentle. Yeah. Sometimes there’s deeper digging we need to do.

Not, not literally physically more like, Hey, this isn’t the right tool for me, or I need to go see this person or see that person. But this is why I always give them that preface of like, it is going to be simple, it is going to be easy. Let it and just see how you feel after. And then they’re always like, yeah, that was so

Sue Hitzmann: Yeah, we, we make, we make things harder than they need to be. I, I do believe that. I mean, I get it. Sometimes things are hard, and sometimes people are horrible, and sometimes people are mean, and say horrible things, and sometimes we do too. And you have to first forgive yourself. And then deeply [00:48:00] apologize and And even when people say, Oh, and I don’t mean like, let bygones be bygones, but really to understand radical forgiveness and to realize that, you know, again, you have the power in you to heal anything. And. In the case of, well, then why, why do people die? And I say, well, because life is impermanent and nobody’s going to get out alive.

You’re not going to take your mind or your body with you. So utilize those as much as you can in the human experience, because when your soul leaves that body, it’s going to be peaceful and you’re not going to have to worry.

Leigh Ann: I love that. That’s so beautiful. I want to ask a tangent to what we were just talking about. I have been seeing so much lately on social media. Kind of the exact opposite of what we’re talking about. Like people digging their elbows into the shoulder or digging their elbows into the, I don’t know, the liver and the clients on the [00:49:00] table, like writhing and screaming in pain.

And it’s sort of promoted as like, this is what emotional release is. I would love your two cents on that in terms of like a fascial lens.

Sue Hitzmann: Okay. Look at, you know, some there, there’s a time and a place for heavy compression. And sometimes this may be beneficial to people, but this is an outdated mentality. Once upon a time, Ida Rolfe had this idea that to really get emotional trauma out primal scream, right? The, like all of these, um, kind of historical concepts where, you know, you would really go into so much pain that it would overstress the nervous system and kind of like, uh, you know, getting electrocuted and then passing out and then coming back to, and everything is fine.

But, you know, honestly, if you’re in pain, why would you create more pain to get out of pain? It doesn’t make any sense. It’s like, I’m going to empty the cup by filling it so that it just [00:50:00] keeps running over. And in some ways, I’m emptying the cup, but I’m filling it at the same time. It doesn’t make sense, right?

So there’s a, an easier way to transform a body by just becoming again, aware of what the body is asking us for. Sometimes pain is a great motivator and sometimes our body has pain and it’s because it’s trying to tell us something. Um, and, and sometimes it could be an emotional something and you’re, and it’s bringing it up.

To your conscious mind for you to do something about it. I mean, when my foot hurt me and in my second book in male performance, I, I talked about this, that my foot started to hurt me six months before my father was diagnosed with cancer.

Leigh Ann: Hm, hm,

Sue Hitzmann: hadn’t really thought about that relationship until many years after cranial sacral therapist and she worked on my nose.

And the next day, my foot didn’t hurt me anymore. And I, I had a somatoemotional [00:51:00] release while she was working on my nose, an image of my dad when I was young and he, I’d broken my nose and he cracked my nose back into place and put a cigarette out and said, don’t worry, it’ll build character. And that emotion popped right back up into my mind.

And the therapist said to me, it’s almost like I get a sense like you’re uprooted. And there it was is when my father was dying. I think that before. He was even diagnosed. His frequency was changing and my body picked up that frequency. And it was like taking a flower and ripping it out of the ground with the roots and the roots are just dangling.

And now I’m being sent back to my hometown and helping my parents out and trying to figure out the arrangements and everything and stopping my whole career in, in a sense to help my family through this time. And all the while I’m, I’m in pain [00:52:00] and, uh, it really, that hit me when I realized my gosh, maybe that emotional moment is what caused me all that pain.

And it makes sense. And so when I work on people who have physical pain, most often there’s an emotional component to it that as you bring it up, they might be talking about something that happened to them 50 years ago, but sure enough, the next day they call me and they’re like, I feel so much better today.

I’m like, yeah, you kind of take some of that emotional baggage away. And we don’t need that anymore. It’s not serving us. Let’s just move on from it. Let’s break that frequency and let’s bring the frequency of, of, you know, neutralize it. Um, and that’s where MELT becomes their best healthcare is that they treat their feet, they ground themselves, they root themselves back into their bodies and they feel better.

Leigh Ann: mm hmm. Oh, I love it so much. Thank you so much, Sue. I, we could probably keep going on so many different tangents. I will make sure in the show notes, so many different things are linked, but just here on the audio for everyone. Where can people find you, [00:53:00] interact with you, learn more.

Sue Hitzmann: So they can go to Melt Method, M E L T method. com. I’m also very active on social media, on the Melt Method pages, on Facebook, on Instagram. Uh, we do retreats and events. Uh, so if anybody wants to come and hang out with us, and I also have a streaming platform called Melt On Demand. We’ve got about 3, 800 instructors worldwide who teach the method.

So find one of them, come take a class and experience it for yourself.

Leigh Ann: Oh my god, I love it. I’m going to take a class 100%. I can’t wait to experience this. Well, thank you so, so much. This was so incredibly expansive and beautiful. I can’t wait for the audience to get to listen.

Sue Hitzmann: so much.