TA Ep. 163 Leigh Ann & Kelly – Embracing Authenticity, Resilience, and Growth: Insights from Armchair Expert Episode w/Jon Batiste

Leigh Ann: [00:00:00] Okay, so we are doing something a little different today, which I think is really fun. I’m trying to get more playful with some of the solo episodes I do, or the episodes with Kelly that we do together. And just, what am I wanting to talk about? What’s lighting me up? Where, just, are there some, I think, juicy tidbits?

And so, there’s a podcast episode on Armchair Expert. That I listened to that show all the time. I love it with Jon Batiste and it’s literally almost a year old now. So it’s so funny that for some reason I’m orbiting around it again. But I was like, Oh my God, I just, I want to talk about this with Kelly.

I think there’s so many great themes in here. And so we’re going to give it a go and there might be some great insights in this, or we might totally scrap this whole conversation.

Kelly Schmidt: let’s see what golden nuggets we pull out of

Leigh Ann: Yeah. Well, I’m curious for a couple of things. One, um, Have you listened were you aware of Jon Batiste? Did you know who that was before this?

Kelly Schmidt: Okay, no. Yes, [00:01:00] slightly. Um, I think only because I am a huge movie buff and I knew he had a documentary that had come out and so I hadn’t seen it. Um, it, this is entirely on me and where I was at the time, but I knew it had a lot to do with his wife. Having cancer and him going through like I think pulling off his own symphony at the same time And I was sort of like this is a little overwhelming for me at this time.

I can’t watch it. I’ll add it to my list It’s been on my list for ages. Like I went back and looked at my movie list And I have a separate like documentary list and it was on there and I was like, Oh, I should have been watching it this whole time. They really sang his praises on this episode. I thought it was really interesting, but even just getting a feel for a few snippets of the film, I just thought this, the film alone seems like it had such rippling impact.

And then to hear he has an album that came out, he won all these awards. I mean, this guy is, he went to Juilliard. He is an incredible person. So now I am so aware of him. We’ll probably always be a fan, but yeah. Did you know of him

Leigh Ann: [00:02:00] before? No, not really. I mean, I am, so I feel like I’m five to 10 years behind

anything

Kelly Schmidt: behind anyone else.

Or

Leigh Ann: Literally, the only reason I think I have a tab on anything happening.

Currently is through Armchair Expert because they, because they interview, obviously, people, you know, promoting current things. Um, but I, On his show, there’s been a couple of interviews they’ve done where I have gone back and listened to them like three times, five times. They almost become like a comfort blanket where it’s like, Hmm, what do I want?

What do I want in the background while I’m doing this thing? Like I’ll just put on, you know, I’ll filter through these couple episodes. I just loved. And this was one of those ones where it’s I keep going back to it. Cause every time I listen to it, there’s There’s something, and this is what we’re going to get into, right?

It’s what are our takeaways from this conversation? I think DAX is so good at facilitating these really vulnerable conversations. So you often get a side of these celebrities or experts that you’re really not getting in some of the other mainstream media [00:03:00] places. And in listening to it, there were so many, I felt like beautiful themes, beautiful takeaways, like stirring up so many thoughts for me.

And it’s just so fun to get to sit down and talk about

Kelly Schmidt: about that. Yeah, if I’m totally honest, I had never listened to a full episode of Armchair Expert before, I want to confess! I never had, yes! And it was, it was so surprising just their dynamic. I think Dax and his range his ability to connect on so many different levels.

Like levels topics. Um, his bandwidth is just, is absolutely stunning. Um, and I thought his thought process about a lot of these kind of, I don’t know, maybe like he’s, he’s in comedy improv, you know, and I guess not that I don’t think those people are brilliant. I think they are. I don’t know that. I always assume that they go super deep.

Um, and so I was very pleasantly surprised with some of the depth that he brought to that conversation for

Leigh Ann: Yeah. Completely. No, that he does that so well. And I think that, I think he really has fun [00:04:00] with

Being that nuanced of a

Kelly Schmidt: Mm hmm.

Leigh Ann: and like surprising

people

Kelly Schmidt: he seems to love that.

Leigh Ann: totally. Okay. So you, you go first.

I have a whole big long list. I’m sure we’re not going to get through all of this, but a big long list of just some of the things that lit me up, that stood out to me that I think are worth chatting about, but you go

Kelly Schmidt: Okay, well, I’ll kick us off with one that I’m sure you are going to have a whole bunch of thoughts on, but I’m also sure you already highlighted it for yourself.

Um, I think the first thing that really stuck out to me, not necessarily in the very beginning of the episode, but was just around the topic of wondering if we’re deserving of the good things that come our way. Um, which came Up. Up, I think through Jon and, and also Monica. Through Monica, yeah. Kind of talking about relationships, but I think they kind of expanded it into quite a few other arenas just because this is not a topic that can kind of land solely in the relationship part of our lives, but really [00:05:00] can impact every part of it.

Right. So. Um, Monica really raised the question like, can I deserve a good thing and if, if a good thing comes my way, can I have it, can I keep it, um, without maybe something negative or bad showing up alongside it or sometimes in its place.

That to me feels so universal. I just thought, I don’t hear about that very often.

But I think my hunch is that. Every person’s felt that?

Leigh Ann: Mm hmm.

Kelly Schmidt: Um, and that maybe we say to ourselves when challenging times hit us, like, why me? But I, I actually think that underneath that, we all kind of think, of course me.

Leigh Ann: Yeah, oof.

Kelly Schmidt: Actually of course me. This would happen to me because a bad thing would come my way.

I couldn’t have a good thing without me. this challenging thing, or I can’t have a good thing at all. I can only have something challenging. And I think her raising that and [00:06:00] then Jon and Dax lending their own color to it from their own lives. Man, I thought that was, it really hit home for me. What about

Leigh Ann: Oh yeah, there’s so many. It’s funny, there’s so many crossovers to other things right now with this. First of all, I hear this a lot with clients where they’re like, when things start going good, it almost feels because things are going good, something is going to go bad. And then what a perfect segue into the book, The Big Leap, which is all about, we have a certain amount of tolerance for goodness. And once we’ve met that tolerance, we start sabotaging, you know, with worry, with, um, deferral, all these different things. And by the way, we’re doing the book club on the big leap coming soon. So what a perfect segue. But I was thinking about this, cause it’s I think there’s an element of that, of upper limiting.

And then I was thinking, I literally made notes on this. Cause this is something that really stood out for me too, of. I think sometimes we do that because it gives us a sense of control over the bad. Where it’s I want to [00:07:00] know why bad things happen so I can anticipate them.

And unconsciously maybe we’re pairing that with, well, if too many good things happen, then something bad will happen.

And that almost weirdly gives us a road map how to expect when bad things are going to come. And so I could see in this kind of weird counterintuitive way. It being a safety mechanism.

Kelly Schmidt: Right, because we never assume that we deserved the good, but we definitely assume that we deserve the bad. I think most people would probably say that is true of them, right?

Like I can always come up with a reason in my life why something bad happened. It’s probably because of this or if I had made different choices, but I’m not sitting there making excuses for the good things that happen. I’m not, I’m not sitting there saying, wow, I deserve that. Yeah, of course. Of course this would happen to me.

So where, why do you think we almost come It seems to me like pre programmed with that belief. It feels human. [00:08:00] Is it human? Or do you think that it’s something nurtured into us somehow?

Leigh Ann: I feel let me tell you what I feel like I’ve gotten to thus far. I feel like we all intuitively, energetically, instinctually know bad things will happen. Or painful things, hard things, heavy things. I think we intuitively know that’s life. There are going to be those things, but the idea that we have no idea when or how or where or with whom that level of unknown is too scary for us. So we need to try and make it more known. And kind of like what I was saying before, I wonder if. When we make it about us, it gives us this false sense of control. I’m good or bad. I’m deserving. Oh, I got more than I deserved. That’s why this bad thing happened. And actually, if it’s me, then I can control it because then I can make sure I don’t get [00:09:00] more than I deserve so that bad things don’t

Kelly Schmidt: don’t happen. Oh, so like a self sabotaging component almost maybe?

Leigh Ann: Well, like self protective in the sense that If bad things happen because of

Kelly Schmidt: Mm-Hmm.

Leigh Ann: I can control when they do or don’t happen.

Kelly Schmidt: I won’t let too many good things

Leigh Ann: Totally. And then it does end up being self sabotaging, but self sabotage always at the root anyways is just self protection from something.

Kelly Schmidt: Mm. Okay. Expand

Leigh Ann: I mean, self sabotage from the outside looking in looks so Destructive.

I built up this business and then I let it crumble. I created this great relationship and then I burned it to the ground. But in that, you know, the premise I work on, which is your subconscious is only ever trying to protect you in that is something, there was some perceived threat in the thing you had that your brain was like, huh, either I keep this great relationship I have [00:10:00] or, and it leads to this, or I, Jump out of it.

And I, it leads to this. One of those has a deeper threat. And so often when it’s self sabotage, whatever that perceived threat was, even in the goodness wins out. And I think that’s where it gets really nitty gritty where it’s like still, why would someone do that? Right? Like maybe when you’re in a really amazing relationship, why would anyone sabotage that?

Maybe the subconscious is going, I don’t feel deserving of this one day. They’re going to see it and they’re going to leave me. So I better leave first. And then when we look at it from that lens, we can start to see how the brain does think it’s self protective. They’re going to leave me one day. So to protect myself from that deeper hurt, I will do this thing now.

Kelly Schmidt: also do you think there’s an aspect of, I don’t know what will happen. They may stay with me forever, but they might not. And the risk of not knowing or living in uncertainty in our lives feels intolerable. So I need to make it black and white. [00:11:00] It needs to become a reality one way or another. And if that means.

sabotaging it or burning it to the ground, then I will do that to make sure that I can wrap my brain around a certain outcome.

Leigh Ann: Completely. The, we, we will try to make the unknown known. And sometimes it, that, that looks like, I don’t know if they’re going to leave me or not. So I’d rather know that it’s over and have that solidity. Is

Kelly Schmidt: that Is that

purely biological, you think? Like almost a, like an animalistic quality to us that’s saying, I need to, I need to be able to plan and know, and I can’t live with uncertainty.

What is the, the lack of ability to live with liminal space or gray?

Leigh Ann: Because if you think about it, it truly in a primal sense, ancestrally thousands of years ago, if we [00:12:00] did not know or understand something, it, it could be a threat. It could really be life or death. And I do think there’s primal programming there that is running a lot of this, which is why I think there’s an element of the unknown will always be scary.

If we’re trying to get to a place where we’re never afraid of anything anymore, I don’t know that that’s really realistic. And so, yes, I think there’s a part of this that’s very primal and natural and innate that in some ways in this more modern world, we’re working against this old primal programming.

But also at the same time, I think it’s a capacity problem where if you have so much unprocessed stuff, so much misalignment, so much past trauma that’s unprocessed, it’s just taking up all your capacity. So you don’t have capacity to sit with the fear of the unknown, whereas maybe someone who Has more space, maybe has released more, processed more, cleared The fear is still there, but they have more capacity for it. So that they’re able to kind of sit with it and move through it.

Kelly Schmidt: it. Do [00:13:00] you think there is any truth to the idea that we can have too much good and then inevitably something balances it out with the bad?

I think people really wonder. They, maybe they’ve seen that or perceive that they’ve seen that in their lives. Do you, as a practitioner, or you just as a person, do you believe in it?

Leigh Ann: I as like a blanket statement. I don’t think there’s too much good. With that said, I think this gets us into a conversation of why do quote unquote bad, or I tend not to use that word. I tend to use more like heavy. Why do heavy, painful, hard things happen and.

What I wonder is, are they happening more because not that I had too much good, but I had too much good and that made me complacent or I had a ton of good and that made me conceded or neglect other things. I almost wonder if it’s that. And then, you know, God the universe or whatever is sort of coming in saying, Hey, you, you’re starting to [00:14:00] get a little off track.

Maybe we need to nudge you back with some of these wake up calls.

So I almost see it more as like a. were facilitating it, not, not because just blanketly, Oh, you had too much good. Now, now you’re going to get punished with bad, but more of a, what did I do with that

Kelly Schmidt: Right.

Leigh Ann: Did that lead me into complacency and conceitedness and a lack of humility and power hungry and all these things that I then needed some bad or heavy to redirect me.

Kelly Schmidt: And

I think there’s an aspect of it where we just don’t know the outcome of the heavy and the bad sometimes. It doesn’t necessarily equate to, you know, some super negative outcome in our lives. Because I think that ultimately. The universe gives us a lot of opportunities for, for goodness and expansion, but also challenge, which does force redirection, but maybe for the better, right?

To become more fully who we are, or challenge to kind of smooth our edges in areas where we [00:15:00] need to, to kind of grow or soften or expand. So who’s to say really, I mean, I think some of the most challenging. Aspects of our lives, our greatest griefs are huge catalysts for our growth or can be. And I think the universe is always offering that opportunity, right?

We’re always going to keep getting opportunities for both really abundant, good things. And also the challenging hard stuff, which ultimately is the fastest kind of fast track to our, our,

growth and evolution. And you’re always going to be getting those opportunities in tandem. That might seem I’m sure there are a lot of good things and also this one terrible thing or some terrible things.

But are they terrible or is it potentially the next opportunity for upleveling?

Leigh Ann: totally. And that’s why I like to say heavy things, hard things, painful things, because bad is such a black and white blanket statement.

Whereas I really think so often what we can do with the heavy, hard things that happen, even [00:16:00] loss of a loved one. That’s heavy. That’s painful. There’s not a lot of obvious good in that. And yet it can allow also so much growth in certain areas for some of us. So I think there’s that piece of it. I lost my train of thought.

I

Kelly Schmidt: I agree with you fully. I think that there is that piece of it, that like goodness combined with chat, like it’s, it’s all kind of a soupy mess of, of us evolving really as people. I don’t, I think the gray is kind of the mix of, of both experiences in our lives. But to your point, nonetheless, very painful at times.

It doesn’t. It doesn’t sort of put a bandaid over. It’s not meant to a gaping hole, um, inside you that may really hurt or feel wounded by the experience. But I, I do think that it can be a mindset shift, you know, it’s how I decide to look at this thing that’s coming to my life, either as my next [00:17:00] burden, my next cross to bear, or my next step in a path that’s right for me.

That is a really difficult choice and it’s one that I think you have to make over and over again when it’s a really heavy thing. Um, and so I don’t know, I, just some thoughts on like why the challenge can really start to feel like it goes hand in hand with the good moments in our

Leigh Ann: Yeah. I, I tend to feel like it has a lot to do with control, that we can just convince ourself that if, if I can compare it to this thing, then I can anticipate when it will happen.

Mm-Hmm. . But, but also I would almost say it doesn’t even totally matter why heavy, hard things happen. Although of course we want to be like cognizant of huh, am I doing the same thing over and over that keeps creating this situation? Yes. But the point I’m making is what is the sentiment beneath this worry or this connection or coupling of bad things to goodness, what’s beneath it is if I get too much good, something bad will happen.

And I won’t be able to handle that. [00:18:00] That will be too much for me. So I need to prevent it at all costs. And so we can have a whole conversation about what actually causes these things to happen. But actually I think the solution or the deeper solution is if we make peace that heavy things can happen and I’ll get through it.

Kelly Schmidt: Yeah.

Leigh Ann: We don’t need to be so afraid of those things happening. They’re going to happen. It’s inevitable. They’re going to happen. And if we address that piece of bad things will happen and I need to avoid that at all costs, versus heavy things will happen, and what can I do to equip myself for those moments?

I think that fear of it coming can dissipate so

Kelly Schmidt: Yeah, building the resilience, the capacity, and the right mindset to use it for your good.

Leigh Ann: The resources, the support system, all the things.

Kelly Schmidt: Totally. Yep. Love

it.

Leigh Ann: Oh, that was a good one. Yeah, I had notes on that too. Um, Let’s just go here. I kind of wanted to save this. By the way, maybe I should say this at the beginning too, [00:19:00] that we’ll link the

Kelly Schmidt: Yeah.

Leigh Ann: Um, and also if any of you guys listen to Armchair Expert, you’ll know that DAX they’re very long conversations and they also kind of go all over the place.

So they covered a ton of different topics and I just was making notes on some of the pieces that really stood out to me, but I think I do want to go here that way, you know, if we get nothing else out of this, we can touch on some of these, like these two really big pieces. First, Jon’s authenticity literally feels palpable to me, like through the speakers of my phone.

I just feel like there is an aura. And I also think that is part of the appeal of listening to the episode again and again and again. It’s I just want to be in that aura of authenticity. And I do think it stands out to me so specifically because I still find it very hard to let the fullness of my authenticity show.

In public settings. And so it’s very expansive and [00:20:00] inspiring and almost like a model for me to see him. I mean, in this interview, and you’ll see if you watch other like YouTube videos or other interviews with him, he is just so unabashedly himself. He’ll start singing in the middle of a conversation.

He’ll, he’ll start laughing or clapping. It’s just so like unbound

Kelly Schmidt: unbound.

Leigh Ann: in the best way. And there is very much a part of me that’s like, how do I do that? I, that looks so free. There’s a, I think as observers or as people in his orbit, orbit, there’s a safety in that. Because you know, nothing’s being hidden.

Like it’s just there. And I want that. I want to be able to embody that. I want to be able to create that for others. And yet I find it very, very hard.

Not that I am being. fake or inauthentic, but I think it’s more of a, Ooh, I’ll let this much of me come through, but not all of it. You know, these, these pieces I’m going to hold back.

Kelly Schmidt: Okay. Well, my first thought [00:21:00] was it’s interesting that you see in him this, you know, living out loudness and to you, it creates safety. Whereas I think to other people, sometimes that creates a sense of, Oh, I, I am, I can’t live that way. So I need to push away from that.

And actually creates a lot of discomfort in others. So it’s interesting that for you it really resonates. It’s like something you’re really drawn towards. And it doesn’t scare you off. You’re like, I want more of that. That’s who I want to be. But I don’t know that that’s every single person’s initial response to somebody who kind of, you know, Really dances to the beat of their own drum like quite literally maybe in the middle of a conversation You know, I I think that is very unique.

So can you say more about what that means to you?

Leigh Ann: you? Well, and I think that’s totally true. And they even talked about this in the episode when they were talking about, Dax was like, I could see he even said, I feel a little afraid to love you. Yeah. Could I actually be in your orbit and contribute to your, you know, anything you’re [00:22:00] doing and add value, you’re just so shiny and sparkly and inspiring.

I don’t know that I can bring anything to this. And so,

the intimidation factor. Yeah, I could see myself feeling that if I ever happened to actually be in his physical presence, but also speaking to what you’re saying, I can totally see that lens. Where, for me, his authenticity is inspiring, enabling, and safe, whereas for someone else, it could be threatening.

And also, I think, confronting.

Kelly Schmidt: Mm hmm.

Leigh Ann: Where, when we see someone being so authentic, it reminds us that we’re not.

If that’s true. And, and then that, Unease within us maybe then gets projected onto that person and I think often looks like statements like, oh, they’re just too much

Kelly Schmidt: Right. Yes.

Leigh Ann: totally

Kelly Schmidt: is that maybe something that you would be afraid of? Being considered too much? Totally. [00:23:00] Totally. In any like specific

Leigh Ann: especially when it comes to my work and Things like this podcast and working with clients, you know, it’s sort of like, uh, I, yeah, that feeling of there’s a particular version or flavor of myself that can come out and, and maybe some of these other parts like don’t belong here.

Um, And I don’t, I, I, I think there’s a nuanced conversation here because of course, like when I’m in an Evoque session with a client, I don’t think I should be like making flippant jokes about things, you know? So like the comedic side of me, I don’t

Kelly Schmidt: I think,

Leigh Ann: has a place in all situations, but maybe even, you know, a deeper answer to that is I feel there is more of a full expression of myself that can happen, but maybe I don’t even know what that looks like.

Kelly Schmidt: Do you feel like Jon gets to?

Be his fullest self because he’s an [00:24:00] artist and you don’t get to because you are a

practitioner

Leigh Ann: a

Kelly Schmidt: Yep.

Leigh Ann: All those things that everyone, and so that’s more, I think of what I feel is almost I’m not, I don’t know, respected enough or big enough or shiny enough to be allowed to be my fullest self.

If I were to do that, people would

judge

me and shun me and belittle me. I, I have to be like as famous as Jon to be able to be my authentic self. Which. Which intellectually I know isn’t true, subconsciously feels true.

Kelly Schmidt: Well I think it feels subconsciously true for a lot of people and it probably is somewhat a little true. Like I think what the phenomenon you’re talking about isn’t so [00:25:00] inaccurate. He was describing that exact experience of at some point it just flipped over on his head and he got, it’s cool, now you’re chatting with Dax Shepard and he wants to come see you busking on the street in New York the next time

Leigh Ann: they think it’s cute that you’re

Kelly Schmidt: Yeah, yeah.

Leigh Ann: If I did that, people are like, what the freak are you doing? Not that I want to bust out in

Kelly Schmidt: Right, exactly. So, I, I think, That’s just an aspect of, of human nature, isn’t it? We want to follow the shiny new thing and we’re open to maybe authentic, raw, really raw self expression in certain capacities where we all agree upon this person in their version of authenticity. is fine. We accept it. It’s cool.

We’ve elevated them to celebrity status and you’re doing it A OK. We don’t give that permission to anyone just walking on the street.

Leigh Ann: Totally. Totally. To your point, I think it’s true that the statement, I think I need to add another sentence to [00:26:00] the statement, which is it feels like I can’t be my full authentic self as little old me without being judged.

Um,

but if I was, you know, like Jon, then I could be that full authentic self and be less judged.

And the reality is that’s true.

Kelly Schmidt: yeah,

Leigh Ann: if I can make peace with, yeah, you’re going to be judged, you can still be your authentic self. Then it’s a non issue.

Kelly Schmidt: I think I’ve run into more personalities who, People fall into two camps.

You’re a person who doesn’t mind being judged. You are in your own world. Maybe you are more of an artist. Maybe you are more of a Jon type. And you are like, this is the path. I’m going down it no matter what. No one’s gonna dampen my shine. This is what I’m doing. And he seemed more driven that way. Sort of like, I knew I was on a weird path.

I knew I was kind of odd to other people. And in fact, Juilliard, thought he was, you know, Kind of nuts. Yeah, like mentally ill. They had him psyche evaluated. Um, so he, to, to kind of put that into reference, he [00:27:00] really felt oh man, I, I must be crazy if even at Jewelry Yard, people, the most dedicated people in the world who locked themselves in their bedrooms their whole childhood to learn the cello thought I was nuts.

You know, maybe I really was. But then, you know, here’s us just trying to exist as the, in the fullness of who we are. I don’t know. I think there’s a human aspect of it that’s self protective. To worry if we’ll be judged. To worry that we won’t fit in. And I think there are far more people who fall into that camp than the, I don’t care.

About what y’all think. Yeah, and

Leigh Ann: and you can err too far on both sides. The person who doesn’t care at all that might be labeled the narcissist, right?

And then

Kelly Schmidt: So true.

Leigh Ann: On the other side of it, if we are just completely accommodating in a chameleon and have no identity of our own, that’s too far on the other spectrum as well. But I think it’s I think I feel myself wanting to ponder more and more, what does it mean for me

Kelly Schmidt: your

Leigh Ann: to allow, [00:28:00] to embody a fuller, Authentic expression of myself and yes, in work for sure.

But even just within my own life, like I’ll give such a silly example now that I’m on my own and I have my own space. I forgot how much I love to host and I find myself like, Oh, I want to have a fall dinner and host all my friends and have a little potluck. And, and it’s Ooh, yeah. Okay. Let me do that.

Let me express that. Let me let that come out. And so it’s, it’s in all the ways, some bigger in like things I might want to say and share publicly. And then it’s also smaller in some of these kind of private ways too.

Kelly Schmidt: Do you feel safe to host a dinner with all your friends, host it all the way, and not worry what anyone thinks?

Leigh Ann: totally, yeah. Yeah.

Kelly Schmidt: But I think for some, these are the steps that we’re like, I’m not sure, will people come? Will they enjoy what we do? You know, I think that’s really natural human response, so to your point though, really fascinating to think about what is your version of living.

You know, your brand, your version of living authentically all the way, as much as you can [00:29:00] in your life and your

Leigh Ann: Mm hmm.

Kelly Schmidt: Um, which I think is, uh, requires some time and self reflection. Um, to be sure, and changes with each season of life that we’re in, no doubt.

Leigh Ann: And I don’t think it necessarily means all parts of you are out at all times, you know, because I think that’s maybe how it could be interpreted, where it’s like, being authentic is just, every party gets to come through all the time, and I, that doesn’t feel resonant for me, because I don’t know that all parts of me Need to come out all the time or be like we were saying with that example before with clients.

Um, so yeah, anyways, I think there’s nuance there of what, what does it actually mean for me to be fully authentic? If it doesn’t mean Being a hundred percent me, all parts out all the time. What does it mean? And I think I’m still answering

Kelly Schmidt: that.

Yeah. And they also mentioned that the all parts thing even in the interview, right?

About how the celebrity status means you’re on all the [00:30:00] time. People are going to bombard you and you, it’s not really safe to have all parts of you on display or even there for public consumption. That’s not necessarily fair to them either. So it sounds like that’s Even a question that he wrestles with, Jon Dax, you know, how, how do we maintain an authentic life without sort of allowing too much of that public attention?

judgment, public opinion in to our circle and that sounded like it still does affect them. You know, like Monica made a big deal to say, you can set a boundary. You can say, I’m not talking today. Thank you so much. We’re busy, you know, and they kind of push back against that. No, we could never. I thought that was

Leigh Ann: was fascinating. Yes, totally. The, he still has a fear of if I happen to be rude to a reporter who like, pounced on me at dinner with my wife, that could like, I don’t know, have some really bad repercussions.[00:31:00]

Kelly Schmidt: not really any different than you with a client saying, okay, can I, can I bring, am I bringing too much of myself?

Like what are the professional boundaries? You know, I think that’s, I mean, you’re not quite a celebrity to his level yet, but, but I think the parallels are there, right? It’s a common, probably a common challenge.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. What I loved to kind of taking it another tangent is it was very encouraging in some ways for me to hear him saying oh, I was, I had a ton of anxiety that first year of Juilliard. I had a ton of depression because I do think sometimes I do this. I think it’s pretty common to, to

observe these High performance, hyper successful, shiny people, and think, Oh, they don’t face the same struggles I face.

That’s why they are the, where they are. And really, and I’ve said, I said this years and years and years ago, I remember kind of, I think coming upon this epiphany [00:32:00] really it’s, Oh no, they faced all the same shit. They just figured out how to overcome it or work through it or find a balance and a support for it.

Yeah. And for me, that feels very inspiring and expansive of Oh, okay. So great. That doesn’t mean well, I guess because I experienced anxiety, sometimes I’ll never be able to get there.

Kelly Schmidt: Um.

Leigh Ann: and I just think that the difference between people who are, I don’t know how exactly how to phrase this, maybe not living their fullest potential versus the ones who seem to be living their fullest potential is that

they

all probably had a lot of the same fears, issues, problems, blocks, etc. One of them found a way to work through it and keep taking steps along the path.

Kelly Schmidt: Yeah. What is the, wasn’t it the definition of courage to feel the fear and face it anyway or do it anyway? Yeah. Isn’t that just it, right? I think it really comes down to a decision. Do I, am I going to keep moving forward regardless of this [00:33:00] X, Y, Z emotion that might feel like a huge roadblock?

Or not, you know, and I think plenty of people have turned around and that may be right for them. I’m sure we’ve all turned around to certain roadblocks at certain points in our lives, but maybe for those who have, you know, pushed through obviously, Jon has what’s on the other side is, well, not perfect, right?

Not perfect because he still wound up with, you know, dealing with his wife coming out of. Remission and being back in chemotherapy for cancer and dealing with his own challenges even on the other side of great success Which I found really fascinating, you know you You never truly make it in life and coast.

And I think there’s some aspect of our humanity that’s just at some point, will I do enough that I just live and nothing happens?

And the answer is no. and [00:34:00]

Leigh Ann: then we’ll never have to worry anymore. And, and at the same time I think we are so primally primed for change and novelty. And I think I see this sometimes in people who like so many facets of their life are the same thing over and over. I think you sometimes see them consciously or unconsciously searching for that novelty in

Home

remodeling, in traveling, in, in, um, Art projects, who knows?

And that’s not bad. There’s nothing wrong with that. But I think observing, witnessing, like that’s really what’s going on so often is. It’s not that I absolutely needed a new kitchen. It’s that I needed new ness. And I think this is also speaks to our, Our, um, interest is I fulfill that novelty need, that primal, I think, novelty need, maybe through

cooking [00:35:00] and traveling and friendships.

And someone else might fulfill them in different ways.

Kelly Schmidt: but to your point, some people are also fulfilling it in extramarital affairs and substance abuse.

And we all have that, you know, that itch, that drive for change and novelty. We push against change in so many ways in our life. We want change on our terms. Always. That is challenging, um, because life, of course, tends to not work in our terms, uh, fully. But, it is always our choice, right? How do we bring novelty and some of that healthy change into our lives, and that’s a choice we face every day.

It’s, I think, a pretty important one that we get really clear on

Leigh Ann: Yeah, yeah. And also, let’s, I think at least for me, I, I notice I get really lethargic and kind of apathetic if things are too mundane. And, and then I’ll start to go down this whole road of Do I need to just close my business [00:36:00] and do something else entirely?

Kelly Schmidt: Do I need to burn my whole life down and move to Mexico next

Leigh Ann: And then what I, when I start doing things like, okay, today when I’m working from home, I’m going to go to this coffee shop. And then tomorrow night I’m going to go try a new restaurant. And then three weeks from now, I’m going to do a little weekend trip somewhere. When I do that and I’m intentional about bringing in newness and excitement and discovery, that apathy and lethargy just completely goes away.

Kelly Schmidt: I feel the same, and yet I feel a guilt of my privilege in being able to do that.

Leigh Ann: to do that. I feel like

Kelly Schmidt: Sorry to go there. I

Leigh Ann: takes us right back to the top of this conversation though, which is and if I do something that other people can’t, then

Blank.

Kelly Schmidt: mean, I have plenty of, yeah,

Leigh Ann: to me.

Kelly Schmidt: or I shouldn’t, or I’m not good.

I’m not thoughtful of others, or, [00:37:00] you know, I could be me in a different situation. And then you kind of go down that mental path. I don’t know. I think the idea of privilege is, is one that I think is worth thinking about. Um, with all of us considering, um, anyone listening to this has enough privilege to consider in their lives.

But

I think there is a healthy balance to that because if you go too far down that road, then yes, you’re right. We circle right back to the top in terms of not deserving anything that we have. And, I think, wherever we are, whatever privilege we have, it is our responsibility to do the right thing. Good for ourselves first and foremost, but also for others with that and kind of the overflow And there can be no overflow if we are constantly Thinking the worst of what we have and assuming the worst of what’s to come

Leigh Ann: Yeah. You know, the analogy that’s coming up for me with that is it’s like, Privilege or the things we’ve worked hard to create, it’s like these gifts that keep getting delivered to our doorstep and feeling [00:38:00] guilty about it is like saying, Ooh, other people aren’t having this.

So I’m not going to open these gifts. I’m just going to let them sit there and keep piling up versus actually I can open these gifts. I can receive them. It serves no one. These gifts just sitting there. Thank you. unopened, but also I think a deeper trust of I can open these and receive these and also trust that I’m going to give back in other ways. It’s kind of the difference

Kelly Schmidt: Yeah. No, I love that. I love that perspective. It’s a good one. Mm hmm.

Leigh Ann: What else were some standouts for you?

Kelly Schmidt: Well, another one that I had written down was when Dax tells Jon that he sees him as someone who is sampling a lot of other types of music. You know, Jon had this amazing record.

I just started listening to it. It’s very unique. It’s got so many different musical, um, kind of influences in it. Um, and Doc sells him. He feels like he’s yet to fully land on his own genre. And I think it brought to mind the idea that while I grew with you, I think that Jon is living so [00:39:00] authentically in so many ways.

He also admitted that there’s more to be figured out to himself, and there’s more to be discovered and landed on, um, and almost solidified. And so I think what for me came up was that But perhaps we go through years and years and years and years of tasting and sampling other people’s beliefs, ideas, um, perspectives on how the world works and how we want to live.

And maybe we try on a whole slew of different versions of ourselves before we kind of start to solidify the people that we want to be. And I don’t think that we are super gracious with ourselves through that process sometimes. I don’t think we give ourselves the benefit of the doubt in saying, it’s fine to try on this life and say, is this me?

Not really. I’m going to put it back on the shelf. No shame to it, but it’s not me. Let me try on the next one. I think we [00:40:00] almost shame that process, even though that seems perfectly normal. Yeah.

Leigh Ann: yeah.

Kelly Schmidt: Rather than. You know, following the path, like I don’t know how society got us on the path and follow this one way and of course I’m sure there’s a control aspect to it and you know our patriarchal society from eons ago Like I just I’m sure there’s an aspect of that to it.

But those were some initial thoughts coming up I just thought this is so normal and yet we don’t allow it kindly for

Leigh Ann: Yeah, I think completely. And on top of that, I have definitely experienced this myself, which is when I try out something and it doesn’t fully resonate, there’s pieces of it that resonate, but it doesn’t fully resonate.

I feel really disheartened of Oh, there is no box that I fit

in. And I think that’s a little bit of our all or nothing society of, well, either you’re like, Completely a, I don’t know, I’m making something up, Buddhist or you’re totally Christian, you know,

Kelly Schmidt: right.

Leigh Ann: or you’re totally vegan [00:41:00] or completely

Kelly Schmidt: Yeah. Yeah.

Leigh Ann: And I, I, this is something I struggled with for years because I just felt such a displacement of there is no one group, no one setting, no one belief system that I. Fully accept all pieces and parts of it. And it started to feel very isolating of Oh, I guess I’ll never find my people or I’ll never find my group because I, I see this piece and you know, that other piece doesn’t resonate.

And I, now I’ve just started to make peace with it where it’s I’m no longer looking for people or places or ideas that match a hundred percent. It’s more Hey, these are the friends and. They kind of fulfill this piece and this is what resonates with me with them. They don’t need to serve some of these other pieces.

I have other friends over here. And when I finally made peace with that, that was so huge for me because so often I would feel like, is something wrong with me? Why can’t I just be all in, in [00:42:00] this thing? Like these people seem to

Kelly Schmidt: Yeah, but

Leigh Ann: Yeah, but to his, I think actually he, he spoke to this, maybe not in such a direct way, but creating your own genre to what you were saying.

And I loved what he was talking about how at Juilliard there’s this idea of The best you can do is be a Beethoven. The best you can do is match Bach and that’s it. Like these few people from the past, we’re just trying to get you to their level. And he was sort of pushing back at that. No, Hey, maybe big Beethoven could have been better.

Why is he the only gold standard? Or why are we saying it couldn’t get better than this. And it’s funny. Cause I wonder if there, there will come a day where it’s Like the

Kelly Schmidt: Batiste

Leigh Ann: is like now the new gold standard, but there is this thing in society. I think we see this really often where it’s yeah, [00:43:00] the, the ceiling that has been set by people before us that we revere and respect and all these different things.

We don’t question it. We’re just like, oh yeah, that is as high as you can go.

Kelly Schmidt: right, because we’ve passed that along in our history books.

Yeah. Right, we’ve just decided, somehow, collectively. Again, we collectively raised someone up. Um, that collective agreement is passed down and down and down. So now here we are. These are the standards and we don’t feel particularly inclined to change them. Like what’s what’s the point? You know, and I think I find that so fascinating that we don’t try to kind of iterate on on the giants of our or the pillars of our sort of all kinds of genres, you know that we revere people for.

We’re fine with saying, oh, this thing from almost like the older it is, the more meaningful it must be. Like if it happened in history, it holds more value,

Leigh Ann: Yes.

Kelly Schmidt: more weight.

Leigh Ann: And that’s what Jon was saying is he, he really was [00:44:00] pushing against that and got a lot of maybe negative feedback or input of no, no, no, no, walk inside the lines.

Kelly Schmidt: Yeah.

Leigh Ann: know, who are you to question Beethoven? Who are you to question Bach? They’re the best of the best.

And also even maybe this sentiment of how dare you think you could create something

Kelly Schmidt: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. There’s a lot of pushback from that. Man, I’d love to see him create his own competing school of, you know, his own version of Juilliard.

That would be incredible.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. Yeah, but that like unabound and again, he seems from the outside looking into have this innate ability to see beyond the box that was maybe set for him or that society is telling him he needs to be in and I that is something I I can’t.

I

find

very, very hard as well. I tend to go, you tell me what the bounds are so I can stay in them and not ruffle any feathers.

Kelly Schmidt: And that’s a personality type. I [00:45:00] thought I resonate with it myself, um, and it can be easier that way. Again, you know, I mean, if you’re a person who cares about what, where the judgment flows and you don’t want it to flow in your direction, then yeah, you’re like, tell me, tell me the box dimensions and I’ll hop right in.

Um, but he seems very at peace with himself and his becoming. And I think that’s probably what we both took away from it is. He’s not fully formed as a person. He know he’s still in in process in many ways as we all are He doesn’t need to jump on this podcast and tell us all that he’s arrived. He’s got it figured out.

He knows what’s up He’s he’s at home and in the process himself, he has found that measure of calm and collectedness, even though there’s still kind of lots left to be figured out and answered. And I think that’s really beautiful. And I really was drawn to that

Leigh Ann: Yeah,

completely. Again, very inspiring. oh, okay. You know, if he can shake up the [00:46:00] music industry, I can shake up the mental health

Kelly Schmidt: Yeah.

Leigh Ann: And I see it in certain ways and maybe that’s a role I’m meant to play. And I do, I, again, I think there’s something that just resonates so deeply because from a very, very young age, I felt like, uh, I meant to play a big role on this planet and, and at the same time felt so small and inequipped. And I’m not a disruptor.

I’m a go with the flower. I’m the peacemaker.

Kelly Schmidt: Mm-Hmm.

Leigh Ann: Um, so I think that is kind of like my own life journey of figuring

hmm. How to overcome some of those things.

Kelly Schmidt: maybe some of this really does start with the being at home within ourselves, you know, um, and creating that safe space so that even in the becoming, even in the trying on different, you know, versions of ourselves, there is a calm and a peace to it that that feels really safe.

Another thing I wanted to kind of highlight was that he touched on the topic of rejection and how.[00:47:00]

Leigh Ann: Oh, I loved this part.

Kelly Schmidt: this was so good. Okay, well, what were your thoughts? Tell me, tell

Leigh Ann: no, you go

Kelly Schmidt: Okay, well, just like really quickly. I just, I just thought that that is also an inevitable part of becoming ourselves, right?

That rejection piece. And yet, that may also, kind of circling back to the top, come across as another way that we can’t have good without something bad or heavy happening to us, right? We may perceive it that way. Is, is that inevitable rejection that is a part of our. our evolution is somehow Almost diverting us from where we need to go instead of seeing it as truly like redirection Towards the the path we’re always meant to be on.

Leigh Ann: on. Yeah, well it just, I see it as again, you know, the visuals that come to me so quickly.

It’s like the things we’re trying to avoid. In this case, he’s maybe talking about rejection. Maybe for some of us it’s abandonment or judgment. It’s we have two options. We can look [00:48:00] down the path and look ahead and go, Ooh, I see a stone of rejection on there. Guess I can’t take that path. Ooh, this, okay.

I went to a new path. Oh, this path has a couple stones of abandonment and shame. I guess I can’t walk down that path. But if we spend our whole lives searching for paths that have nothing on them, we’re going to be walking in circles forever. Versus what he did was like, I know every damn path I take, no matter which path I take, is going to have rejection on it, so let me just get comfortable with rejection.

That way I can go down any path I want.

Kelly Schmidt: Yeah,

I don’t, I think that’s something that we know conceptually, as you kind of mentioned earlier. We know hard things are going to happen, but I don’t think it’s something that we’ve taken in, in reality, as like an inevitability.

Almost. It’s we honestly think if we’re just good enough, I won’t feel rejection. That will not happen to me. If I’m actually amazing at what I do and I work hard enough or I’m special enough, it just won’t happen to me.

Leigh Ann: well that [00:49:00] unconscious control that we’re trying to grab onto of these things we don’t want.

If I can figure out almost how to like, hack the game, I won’t have to experience these unpleasant things versus maybe where more of where I’m trying to get is if I’m just not afraid of the unpleasant things, then it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t mean they’re not going to be unpleasant, but I also think to your point, we do all sort of know intellectually hard things are going to happen, heavy things are going to happen.

And at the same time, I don’t think very many of us are actively doing anything to equip ourselves or prepare ourselves for them. The, the simplest example from this podcast was Jon was like, I know rejection’s coming, so I need to get comfortable with rejection. So let me go out and see how many times I can get rejected today.

And they would literally like play for people on the subway. And I’m sure people on the New York subway would probably, they weren’t probably all great, wonderful, lovely, happy people.

Kelly Schmidt: [00:50:00] Yeah. Yeah.

Leigh Ann: But to that point, it’s he saw a potential. Threat or roadblock and wasn’t just Ooh, I hope that doesn’t happen.

He was like, what can I do to prepare for it? And I really think if we could be so intentional and specific with some of these things, the fear around them happening would be much, much less, but then also if, and when they did happen, you’re so much more equipped.

Kelly Schmidt: don’t you think that’s a mindset that really needs to develop in childhood and Our society is a,

I mean, parenting nowadays is a little averse to kids having or feeling rejection or kind of teaching kids how to face rejection and then helping them process the emotions of that fallout.

I think we’ve maybe lost touch with that a little bit. I’m not a parent, so I’m not an expert. It’s just something I’ve witnessed a little bit. I don’t know if you feel like that, but I don’t feel like we’re raising up people, probably myself [00:51:00] included, who had a lot of tools. For how to face that.

Leigh Ann: Yeah.

Kelly Schmidt: And I don’t really know that I would have known where to go to get them, either.

Leigh Ann: Totally. Yeah. And I think that is a part of maybe what I feel called and excited to do is let’s make emotional education standard. You know, how can we do that? But yeah, to that point, I do think, not just rejection specifically, but, Negative things, hard things, uncomfortable things. I think most of us were modeled avoidance.

or maybe the reverse, like a fight response where someone gets really angry and really aggressive. But I do think most of us were kind of through how we saw our parents deal with hardship, not talking about it. And again, like it can all come from the best intentions. Like maybe grandma dies and mom and dad never talk about it again.

they might be doing that out of an intent of, look, we don’t want to cause more disruption for the kids. We want them to just [00:52:00] have life keep going on as normal. But what the kid sees is, hmm, something painful and sad happened. And the way mom and dad dealt with it was by never talking about it. That’s what they And so what do they, what gets imprinted for them is, I guess that’s how we deal with these

Kelly Schmidt: Yep. Yeah, and also, if your kid doesn’t know, Is in the baseball tournament and every team gets a trophy all the way down to last place and no one ever feels the sting of rejection or we didn’t quite make it to the top.

I think again that doesn’t help us raise up young people who kind of develop the tools to say I’m devastated. I worked really hard for this thing and I didn’t get what I wanted and I think that’s a That’s such an important moment in adulthood. We all face that where we’ve put our blood, sweat, and tears into something.

It doesn’t go the way we wanted. And what are we going to do? There’s no one there to say you get a consolation prize.

[00:53:00] In adulthood.

Leigh Ann: Yeah, totally. And I think it’s maybe the difference between the concept of protecting kids from it versus preparing them for it. Yeah. And

that doesn’t mean we are Synthetically creating situations where they’re going to experience these things. Look, trust life. Like they’re gonna have experiences, but it’s, I see it so often.

And again, with parents, it comes from such a loving place. I’m thinking of a client I’ve been working with recently whose mother passed from cancer. And that sort of almost like instinctual desire to be like, I need to cry alone in my room. I don’t want my kids to see it because maybe it’ll upset them.

Maybe it’ll scare them. And what I was, you know, what we were sort of puzzling through together is maybe this could be a really great opportunity for you to model what it looks like to process grief. And again, like there are bounds to that. I don’t think that means like. Sobbing uncontrollably and asking your kids to comfort you, right?

Cause then we’re just [00:54:00] parentifying them. But I also think it could be something where it’s like, they can see your tears, they can see you cry and you can let them know, Hey guys, this is really painful. This is really sad. I’ll be okay. We’re all going to be okay. And also this is really sad. And mom needs to take some time alone now.

Or, and you know what, to help me through this sadness, I’m going to go, Talk with Leanne about it, you know, but

it doesn’t necessarily mean okay, now they see everything and hear everything. But I actually think so many of these opportunities are that chance to model for them how to get through it versus just Ooh, let’s just like mask this as much as possible so they don’t feel scared versus it’s Actually they might feel scared, but then you can teach them how to not be scared of this or

Kelly Schmidt: Or you’re belittling or putting, almost like imbuing shame into the, the experience, right? We don’t, there is actually no need to put shame into the mix when it comes to rejection. But that’s something we learn in childhood. If you’re rejected, [00:55:00] the emotion that is modeled for you is Oh, that’s so sad.

Oh, that’s

Leigh Ann: and

Kelly Schmidt: Oh, oh, and, and that I think reaction teaches kids like, I don’t, I don’t want to feel like this. This is bad. It’s embarrassing or wrong. I did do something wrong rather than, you know, finding kind of that path forward. Where are we? Where are we feeling this? How are we feeling this? What does this mean about us?

And having parents really walk you through that experience in a way that. that maybe doesn’t kind of fill up that gap of rejection with shame, kind of in its, in its edges and corners. And I wonder if maybe Jon had parents who really helped walk him through that. If maybe he had experiences with people who, early experiences with rejection that were not shame, like coupled with shame

Leigh Ann: Yeah,

right. That just sort of almost made him more

Kelly Schmidt: to it. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. Something like that.

Leigh Ann: Yeah, a question I actually would love to ask him is, talking about experimenting and [00:56:00] finding your own genre, we see the experiments that worked. You know, and I, I imagine there are probably things he’s experimented with that didn’t work, that fell flat. And that’s something I would love to ask him. Are there some things you experimented with maybe whether it’s in music or personas of yourself that you, you know, experimented with and tried embodying or, or creating that you were like, okay, no, that, that failed miserably or that fell flat on its face.

And that gave me information that I then pivoted from or whatever it might be.

Kelly Schmidt: fascinating to hear from him. I’m sure he would have a few stories. Yeah,

Leigh Ann: because also that feeling of Oh, everything he touches is gold and all these amazing ideas and he just blends all these different genres and it just works. And that for the outside looking in for me feels very weighty of Okay, from the very get go, everything I think up and dream up needs to be the thing, versus no, there were probably so many iterations [00:57:00] of then what we finally saw.

Kelly Schmidt: Yeah, because otherwise it makes me feel like, oh, I’m just not like you.

Leigh Ann: Yeah.

Kelly Schmidt: Yeah, I’m not even gonna, I’m not gonna really try because we are not the

Leigh Ann: Yes, totally. I mean, Dax and Monica were like, no, you’re an alien, you’re, you’re from another planet, so I’m not even gonna feel bad about myself, because you’re just clearly not human.

Kelly Schmidt: are a step above us for sure. That was very cute. Yeah.

Leigh Ann: Any other

closing thoughts? I feel like we covered some

Kelly Schmidt: We covered it a lot. I know. Well, I mean, my closing thought is go listen to it for sure.

Listen to it and, you know, listen to his album. It’s fascinating. Watch the documentary. I think there is so much to be learned from this human and, um, just his perspectives, the, the lens through which he sees life. It’s, it’s unique and it’s really a stunning one. So,

Leigh Ann: I loved it.

That was so fun. I think.

Kelly Schmidt: loved it. Thank you so much.